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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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hello and welcome to the skeptic zone

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episode number 286 for the 13th of april

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2014. richard saunders here with you

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from sydney australia

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and yes it's a world homeopathy

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awareness week are you aware

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my friends are you aware of homeopathy

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well if you listen to this show i guess

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you probably are

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we're going to start with the press

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release from australian skeptics

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including quotes from well me

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about

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the recent national health and medical

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research council draft information paper

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on the effectiveness of homeopathy in

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fact a lot of the show concerns uh this

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draft paper needless to say the draft

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paper came down heavily against

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homeopathy

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no good evidence to suggest it actually

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works but we go into that

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after that press release we have a guest

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read as it were lauren cochran the

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president of canberra skeptics is going

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to read the information from a new

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website homeopathy awareness week

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very good information there this is from

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the uk i think you'll enjoy it after

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that we have a clip from the project the

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project is a wonderful tv show here in

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australia on the ten network it's on

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every week night i i can recommend it dr

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reishi appears on the project from time

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to time and this is a short debate

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between professor john dwyer

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and australian homeopathic association's

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anna lamarro

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i think you'll find it um

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educational

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after that it's an opinion piece written

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by dr ken harvey we can't have it both

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ways on homeopathy

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and after that another guest read by joe

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alabasta with news on the better health

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channels website that was promoting

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homeopathy i mentioned it last week

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and finally to wrap up our homeopathy

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section

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i read the press release from homeopathy

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plus well why not listen to what the

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other side have to say about this whole

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affair

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following that it's a week in science

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from our good friends at the royal

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institution of australia where you can

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a u

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i really enjoy a week in science and

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judging by your correspondence

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so do you

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and to round off the show dr rachie

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reports dr rachel dunlop with a look

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into a recent uh

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study into acupuncture in the emergency

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room in hospitals

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sort of a study

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well you'll find out more

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at the end of the show

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oh i wish i wish folks i wish i was in

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manchester at the moment as i record

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this as i record this

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lots of weary skeptics are waking up for

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day two of qed question explore discover

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the wonderful conference wonderful

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skeptical conference there in manchester

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i know lots of my friends are there

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including uh susan gerbic from guerrilla

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skepticism and iran sir give

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part-time reporter for the skeptic zone

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he's there running about with his

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microphone pretending to be maynard i

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guess and he's going to be sending lots

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of good interviews from people attending

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qed looking forward to that now before

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we get stuck into the show a couple of

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announcements those people living in

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brisbane

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or in queensland or let's face it

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anywhere in australia brisbane skeptic

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camp brisbane skeptic camp will be held

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on the 19th of july at hamilton town

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hall

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skeptic camp is always a good time no

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matter where it is and you can find more

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about brisbane skeptic camp at bris

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skepticamp.org or just google

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brisbane skippy camp 19th of july

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and another group of people doing some

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good work and uh know how to have fun

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the canberra skeptics oh yes camera

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skeptics if you live in the canberra the

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australian capital territory area google

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canberra skeptics or visit

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canberraskeptics.org dot a u

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they have frequent uh free public talks

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and other social events

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and not forgetting our friends in

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victoria the victorian skeptics vic

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skeptics.wordpress.com also lots of

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information there public events

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visit their website if you live in the

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melbourne area

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but that's enough for me it's time for

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me to run downstairs

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make sure that there's still plenty of

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nice cat food for fred who was

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complaining the other day because i fed

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him chicken mints

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oh big mistake oh man

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he let me know

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beef mince yes yes he told me i can read

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cat you see he looked at his bowl and

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said

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make sure i've got some beef mince for

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fred the cat while you enjoy the

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australian skeptics media released

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april the 9th 2014.

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it's official homeopathy doesn't work

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the national health and medical research

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council draft information on the

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effectiveness of homeopathy finds that

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quote there is no reliable evidence that

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homeopathy is effective for treating

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health conditions end quote

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this is the view that australian

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skeptics have been propounding for some

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time

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and thus thoroughly endorses

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quote it is especially timely during

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homeopathy awareness week due to start

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on the 10th of april though the findings

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might not reflect the type of awareness

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that the homeopathy industry would want

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end quote said skeptics president

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richard saunders

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the nhmrc draft report released on april

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9 repeatedly says that studies claim to

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support the efficacy of homeopathy are

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unreliable

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not good quality in terms of design and

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practice

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or too few participants or both

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quote based on all the evidence

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considered there were no health

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conditions for which there was a

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reliable evidence that homeopathy was

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effective and quote the report says

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quote no good quality well-designed

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studies with enough participants for a

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meaningful result reported either that

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homeopathy caused greater health

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improvements than a placebo or caused

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health improvements equal to those of

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other treatments end quote the draft

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report concludes that

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point

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people who chose homeopathy instead of

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proven conventional treatments may put

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their health at risk if safe and

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effective evidence-based treatments are

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rejected or delayed in favor of

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homeopathic treatment

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point homeopathy should not be used to

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treat health conditions that are serious

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or could become serious point people who

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are considering whether to use

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homeopathy should first get advice from

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a health professional

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gp specialist nurse practitioner or

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pharmacist

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those who use homeopathy should tell

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their health professionals and should

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keep taking any conventional medicines

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that they have been

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prescribed professor rob morrison

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professorial fellow in the school of

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education at flinders university in

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south australia and vice president of

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friends of science and medicine

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said that

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quote the draft paper is welcome if

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belated as other advanced countries

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concerned about the useless treatments

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that waste taxpayers money have long ago

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reached the same convincing conclusion

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that homeopathy is among them

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politicians agonize about the burgeoning

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costs of health care in australia

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and subscriptions to health funds are

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climbing out of the reach for many you

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have to wonder why well research reports

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of this kind which clearly distinguish

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between health treatments which work and

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those that don't and which could save

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millions of dollars spent on useless

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treatments are so few and far between

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the report might also have included a

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section to show that if homeopathy

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actually did work the well-established

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scientific validity principles of

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chemistry physics physiology and

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pharmacology must all be wrong end quote

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saunders added that quote for many years

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we have pointed out the problems with

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the evidence for homeopathy

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and despite the best efforts of

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homeopathy boosters

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the practice remains one area where we

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can say with confidence

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that good evidence just does not exist

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end quote

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in 2012 the skeptics issued its annual

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bent spoon award to the homeopathy plus

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organization and its founder fran

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sheffield for

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continued promotion of some of the most

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ludicrous claims of an already ludicrous

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product

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australia's consumer watchdog the a

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triple c

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described some of those claims regarding

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homeopathic treatment of whooping cough

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as

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misleading and deceptive

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the nhmrc says it is quote concerned

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that unconventional products and

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procedures are often promoted to improve

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people's health

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where there is little or no evidence of

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their benefit

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except for the benefits people

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experience when they believe that the

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treatment is effective the placebo

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effect

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sometimes patients may be misled into

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rejecting practices and treatments that

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are proven to be effective end quote

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some of the conditions that proponents

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of homeopathy claim can be treated

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include hiv infection adhd asthma

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depression acute trauma malaria or even

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heroin addiction

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for none of these conditions as well as

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many others did the nhmrc find any

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reliable supporting evidence that

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homeopathic treatment was any better

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than placebo or that the evidence wasn't

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even good enough to make that claim

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saunders said that quote overall the

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nhmrc draft report supports the view

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held by australian skeptics and by

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skeptics groups around the world for

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many years

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it

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just doesn't work end quote

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quote we therefore affirm and support

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the findings and we encourage the

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various related government bodies to act

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on the findings accordingly

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our aim is to see the public protected

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from misleading claims

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hopefully this draft report is one

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positive step in that direction end

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quote

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the nhmrc

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is also looking into the funding of

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complementary medicine through the

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government's support of health funds and

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this report on homeopathy should feed

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into that

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professor john dwyer emeritus professor

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of medicine at the university of new

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south wales and president of friends of

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science and medicine

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said that quote homeopathic preparations

287
00:11:37,350 --> 00:11:34,880
should not be available in our

288
00:11:39,990 --> 00:11:37,360
pharmacies no private health insurer

289
00:11:42,389 --> 00:11:40,000
should provide any rebate for homeopathy

290
00:11:44,470 --> 00:11:42,399
and those few universities that lower

291
00:11:46,310 --> 00:11:44,480
our scientific standards by providing

292
00:11:48,949 --> 00:11:46,320
credibility for homeopathy in their

293
00:11:50,230 --> 00:11:48,959
health courses should cease doing so

294
00:11:52,230 --> 00:11:50,240
immediately

295
00:11:55,190 --> 00:11:52,240
australians can save more than 8 million

296
00:11:57,829 --> 00:11:55,200
precious health care dollars a year by

297
00:11:59,910 --> 00:11:57,839
accepting the advice in this report we

298
00:12:02,550 --> 00:11:59,920
await now for the chief medical officers

299
00:12:05,190 --> 00:12:02,560
report to government on a range of other

300
00:12:08,629 --> 00:12:05,200
unscientific modalities that are likely

301
00:12:10,389 --> 00:12:08,639
to be assessed as being equally useless

302
00:12:12,629 --> 00:12:10,399
it is more important than ever that

303
00:12:15,030 --> 00:12:12,639
credible scientific evidence of clinical

304
00:12:16,389 --> 00:12:15,040
effectiveness underpins our delivery of

305
00:12:27,670 --> 00:12:16,399
healthcare

306
00:12:31,269 --> 00:12:29,430
this is lauren cochran president of

307
00:12:34,389 --> 00:12:31,279
canberra skeptics

308
00:12:36,470 --> 00:12:34,399
from homeopathyawarenessweek.org

309
00:12:38,949 --> 00:12:36,480
homeopathy awareness week takes place

310
00:12:40,389 --> 00:12:38,959
internationally from april 10 to 16 and

311
00:12:42,230 --> 00:12:40,399
is aimed at raising awareness of

312
00:12:44,150 --> 00:12:42,240
homeopathic remedies

313
00:12:45,750 --> 00:12:44,160
each year homeopaths from around the

314
00:12:48,310 --> 00:12:45,760
world use this week to promote their

315
00:12:50,310 --> 00:12:48,320
practice and gain publicity yet public

316
00:12:53,590 --> 00:12:50,320
awareness of the realities of homeopathy

317
00:12:55,670 --> 00:12:53,600
remain low for example many people

318
00:12:57,590 --> 00:12:55,680
mistakenly believe homeopathic products

319
00:12:59,350 --> 00:12:57,600
are a form of herbal products not

320
00:13:01,430 --> 00:12:59,360
realising that homeopathic products

321
00:13:02,550 --> 00:13:01,440
typically contain no active ingredients

322
00:13:04,310 --> 00:13:02,560
at all

323
00:13:06,389 --> 00:13:04,320
over two centuries ago the first

324
00:13:08,470 --> 00:13:06,399
homeopath perversely decided the

325
00:13:10,470 --> 00:13:08,480
diluting and active medicinal ingredient

326
00:13:12,310 --> 00:13:10,480
makes it more potent with the vast

327
00:13:13,269 --> 00:13:12,320
majority of remedies containing nothing

328
00:13:15,430 --> 00:13:13,279
at all

329
00:13:17,910 --> 00:13:15,440
modern homeopathic tablets are generally

330
00:13:20,710 --> 00:13:17,920
100 sugar containing no active

331
00:13:22,870 --> 00:13:20,720
ingredient whatsoever as part of world

332
00:13:24,710 --> 00:13:22,880
homeopathy awareness week we would like

333
00:13:26,470 --> 00:13:24,720
to raise awareness of 12 key points

334
00:13:27,430 --> 00:13:26,480
about homeopathy

335
00:13:30,310 --> 00:13:27,440
one

336
00:13:31,990 --> 00:13:30,320
in 2010 the uk government science and

337
00:13:34,470 --> 00:13:32,000
technology committee analyzed the

338
00:13:37,110 --> 00:13:34,480
research into homeopathy and concluded

339
00:13:39,750 --> 00:13:37,120
that homeopathic products perform no

340
00:13:41,670 --> 00:13:39,760
better than placebos this conclusion was

341
00:13:43,509 --> 00:13:41,680
backed up this week in a review by the

342
00:13:45,110 --> 00:13:43,519
australian national health and medical

343
00:13:47,030 --> 00:13:45,120
research council

344
00:13:49,190 --> 00:13:47,040
with many homeopaths claiming their

345
00:13:52,230 --> 00:13:49,200
pills can treat serious illnesses

346
00:13:54,790 --> 00:13:52,240
homeopathy is a dangerous placebo

347
00:13:56,790 --> 00:13:54,800
2. when penelope dingle chose to take

348
00:13:58,790 --> 00:13:56,800
the advice of her homeopath husband and

349
00:14:01,350 --> 00:13:58,800
treat her rectal cancer with homeopathic

350
00:14:03,590 --> 00:14:01,360
remedies the results were tragic

351
00:14:05,269 --> 00:14:03,600
her death was according to the coroner

352
00:14:07,990 --> 00:14:05,279
the result of being influenced by

353
00:14:10,069 --> 00:14:08,000
misinformation and bad science there are

354
00:14:12,550 --> 00:14:10,079
real dangers in using homeopathy in

355
00:14:13,509 --> 00:14:12,560
place of real medicine

356
00:14:15,990 --> 00:14:13,519
three

357
00:14:17,670 --> 00:14:16,000
homeopathy is big business the

358
00:14:19,590 --> 00:14:17,680
homeopathic industry is highly

359
00:14:21,670 --> 00:14:19,600
profitable for companies like boiron

360
00:14:23,990 --> 00:14:21,680
waleeda and nelson's

361
00:14:27,350 --> 00:14:24,000
the uk homeopathic market is estimated

362
00:14:31,030 --> 00:14:27,360
at 213 million pounds per year

363
00:14:32,550 --> 00:14:31,040
comparable to the us france and germany

364
00:14:34,310 --> 00:14:32,560
all of this for treatments which have

365
00:14:36,790 --> 00:14:34,320
not yet been proven to be any more

366
00:14:40,629 --> 00:14:36,800
effective than placebo

367
00:14:42,870 --> 00:14:40,639
4. in 2010 the nhs spent around 4

368
00:14:44,550 --> 00:14:42,880
million pounds on homeopathy

369
00:14:46,710 --> 00:14:44,560
this money could instead be spent

370
00:14:49,110 --> 00:14:46,720
providing effective treatments vital

371
00:14:51,030 --> 00:14:49,120
surgery and additional nursing staff

372
00:14:52,949 --> 00:14:51,040
with nhs budgets under increasing

373
00:14:55,189 --> 00:14:52,959
pressure wasting money by giving sugar

374
00:14:57,110 --> 00:14:55,199
pills to the sick is unjustifiable

375
00:14:58,949 --> 00:14:57,120
according to the 2010 uk government

376
00:15:00,389 --> 00:14:58,959
science and technology committee the

377
00:15:03,269 --> 00:15:00,399
government should stop allowing the

378
00:15:06,629 --> 00:15:03,279
funding of homeopathy on the nhs

379
00:15:08,230 --> 00:15:06,639
5. in 2012 boron settled a class action

380
00:15:10,629 --> 00:15:08,240
lawsuit over their popular

381
00:15:13,350 --> 00:15:10,639
oscilloscoping homeopathic remedy for

382
00:15:14,949 --> 00:15:13,360
cold and flu boron claim that the remedy

383
00:15:16,150 --> 00:15:14,959
is made from the heart and liver of a

384
00:15:17,990 --> 00:15:16,160
single duck

385
00:15:19,590 --> 00:15:18,000
given that the ultra dilute remedy

386
00:15:21,750 --> 00:15:19,600
contains nothing at all of the original

387
00:15:23,910 --> 00:15:21,760
duck and generates over 20 million

388
00:15:27,350 --> 00:15:23,920
dollars worth of revenue it has to be

389
00:15:28,629 --> 00:15:27,360
the ultimate quack remedy

390
00:15:30,629 --> 00:15:28,639
6.

391
00:15:32,550 --> 00:15:30,639
even now groups such as homeopaths

392
00:15:34,389 --> 00:15:32,560
without borders are currently offering

393
00:15:36,230 --> 00:15:34,399
ineffective homeopathic treatments in

394
00:15:38,310 --> 00:15:36,240
the developing world

395
00:15:40,310 --> 00:15:38,320
other homeopathy charities are known to

396
00:15:42,790 --> 00:15:40,320
dispense sugar pills to treat aids and

397
00:15:44,470 --> 00:15:42,800
the ebola virus some of these groups are

398
00:15:47,990 --> 00:15:44,480
even promoted to the website of the

399
00:15:49,030 --> 00:15:48,000
world homeopathy awareness organization

400
00:15:52,790 --> 00:15:49,040
7.

401
00:15:54,470 --> 00:15:52,800
in 2011 1 700 people in 30 countries

402
00:15:56,389 --> 00:15:54,480
around the world took part in an

403
00:15:58,470 --> 00:15:56,399
international protest each taking an

404
00:16:00,069 --> 00:15:58,480
overdose of dozens of homeopathic pills

405
00:16:02,150 --> 00:16:00,079
to demonstrate that these worthless

406
00:16:04,710 --> 00:16:02,160
pills have no effect and should not be

407
00:16:06,069 --> 00:16:04,720
sold as medicine

408
00:16:07,990 --> 00:16:06,079
8.

409
00:16:09,910 --> 00:16:08,000
if only homeopathy is used even

410
00:16:11,910 --> 00:16:09,920
relatively commonplace ailments can lead

411
00:16:13,829 --> 00:16:11,920
to severe consequences

412
00:16:15,590 --> 00:16:13,839
gloria thomas was nine months old when

413
00:16:17,829 --> 00:16:15,600
her parents chose to treat her eczema

414
00:16:19,590 --> 00:16:17,839
exclusively with homeopathy when she was

415
00:16:22,069 --> 00:16:19,600
finally admitted to hospital she had

416
00:16:24,310 --> 00:16:22,079
developed sepsis and died shortly after

417
00:16:26,310 --> 00:16:24,320
admission her parents confidence and

418
00:16:28,389 --> 00:16:26,320
faith in homeopathy ultimately led to

419
00:16:31,030 --> 00:16:28,399
this tragedy and they were subsequently

420
00:16:32,310 --> 00:16:31,040
jailed for manslaughter

421
00:16:35,030 --> 00:16:32,320
9.

422
00:16:37,030 --> 00:16:35,040
in 2006 a news night investigation

423
00:16:39,350 --> 00:16:37,040
revealed that homeopath told undercover

424
00:16:41,670 --> 00:16:39,360
reporters that homeopathic preparations

425
00:16:43,350 --> 00:16:41,680
could be used to prevent malaria this

426
00:16:44,550 --> 00:16:43,360
advice was roundly condemned as

427
00:16:46,150 --> 00:16:44,560
dangerous and potentially

428
00:16:48,470 --> 00:16:46,160
life-threatening

429
00:16:51,189 --> 00:16:48,480
nevertheless homeopaths still claim to

430
00:16:52,870 --> 00:16:51,199
treat malaria the list of people harmed

431
00:16:54,949 --> 00:16:52,880
by choosing homeopathy instead of

432
00:16:56,870 --> 00:16:54,959
seeking out real medicine is continually

433
00:16:57,990 --> 00:16:56,880
growing

434
00:17:00,069 --> 00:16:58,000
10.

435
00:17:02,790 --> 00:17:00,079
the advertising standards authority has

436
00:17:05,029 --> 00:17:02,800
received over 150 complaints of false

437
00:17:06,789 --> 00:17:05,039
advertising and misleading claims made

438
00:17:08,870 --> 00:17:06,799
by homeopaths

439
00:17:10,710 --> 00:17:08,880
homeopathic bodies seem unwilling or

440
00:17:13,510 --> 00:17:10,720
unable to stop their members making

441
00:17:14,789 --> 00:17:13,520
unsubstantiated claims

442
00:17:16,870 --> 00:17:14,799
11.

443
00:17:18,710 --> 00:17:16,880
many homeopaths regularly discourage

444
00:17:21,350 --> 00:17:18,720
conventional vaccination instead

445
00:17:23,909 --> 00:17:21,360
promoting dosodes these ineffective

446
00:17:26,309 --> 00:17:23,919
homeopathic vaccines put children at

447
00:17:29,110 --> 00:17:26,319
risk of diseases such as measles mumps

448
00:17:30,390 --> 00:17:29,120
rubella and whooping cough

449
00:17:32,070 --> 00:17:30,400
12.

450
00:17:33,990 --> 00:17:32,080
patients have been warned against using

451
00:17:36,710 --> 00:17:34,000
homeopathy by the house of commons the

452
00:17:38,470 --> 00:17:36,720
british medical association the nhs and

453
00:17:40,950 --> 00:17:38,480
the royal pharmaceutical society of

454
00:17:42,789 --> 00:17:40,960
northern ireland mark walport chief

455
00:17:44,710 --> 00:17:42,799
scientific advisor to the government

456
00:17:46,789 --> 00:17:44,720
surmised homeopathic treatments were

457
00:17:49,029 --> 00:17:46,799
nonsense with absolutely no medical

458
00:17:51,270 --> 00:17:49,039
benefit echoing the sentiments of the

459
00:17:53,110 --> 00:17:51,280
uk's chief medical officer

460
00:17:53,990 --> 00:17:53,120
it's clear that leading medical experts

461
00:17:56,549 --> 00:17:54,000
agree

462
00:18:04,549 --> 00:17:56,559
homeopathy simply does not work and

463
00:18:08,150 --> 00:18:05,990
we wanted to get the full picture on

464
00:18:10,549 --> 00:18:08,160
this so we're talking to homeopath anna

465
00:18:13,190 --> 00:18:10,559
lamarro and immunologist professor john

466
00:18:15,029 --> 00:18:13,200
dwyer john homeopaths claim that not all

467
00:18:17,510 --> 00:18:15,039
the evidence has been reviewed is this

468
00:18:19,990 --> 00:18:17,520
report really based on solid evidence

469
00:18:22,470 --> 00:18:20,000
eminent specialists all of them are

470
00:18:24,630 --> 00:18:22,480
experts in studying clinical trials and

471
00:18:27,110 --> 00:18:24,640
research papers have spent two years

472
00:18:28,710 --> 00:18:27,120
studying more than 400 papers and have

473
00:18:31,350 --> 00:18:28,720
come to the same conclusion that

474
00:18:33,510 --> 00:18:31,360
homeopathy is a sham there's absolutely

475
00:18:35,350 --> 00:18:33,520
nothing no wrinkle room in these uh in

476
00:18:36,870 --> 00:18:35,360
this decision and this uh

477
00:18:39,190 --> 00:18:36,880
conclusion by the national health and

478
00:18:41,029 --> 00:18:39,200
medical research council there is no

479
00:18:43,350 --> 00:18:41,039
credible scientific evidence that

480
00:18:44,950 --> 00:18:43,360
homeopathy helps any health condition

481
00:18:47,190 --> 00:18:44,960
john can i ask you one question from a

482
00:18:49,909 --> 00:18:47,200
psychosomatic point of view if t if

483
00:18:52,390 --> 00:18:49,919
using homeopathy makes you feel good

484
00:18:54,310 --> 00:18:52,400
isn't it in some way effective

485
00:18:57,029 --> 00:18:54,320
well of course the placebo effect makes

486
00:19:00,070 --> 00:18:57,039
one feel good short term uh

487
00:19:01,909 --> 00:19:00,080
only of course but when homeopath

488
00:19:03,830 --> 00:19:01,919
suggests that they have a preparation

489
00:19:05,590 --> 00:19:03,840
that can say treat whooping cough a very

490
00:19:08,310 --> 00:19:05,600
serious illness or that they have

491
00:19:09,990 --> 00:19:08,320
vaccinations for things like hiv and tb

492
00:19:12,230 --> 00:19:10,000
and malaria which

493
00:19:15,029 --> 00:19:12,240
scientific medicine can't uh can't say

494
00:19:16,950 --> 00:19:15,039
that these are very serious claims and

495
00:19:19,669 --> 00:19:16,960
if people were to rely on them and think

496
00:19:21,350 --> 00:19:19,679
they were being protected and many many

497
00:19:22,549 --> 00:19:21,360
parents did think that they were

498
00:19:25,270 --> 00:19:22,559
protecting their children with

499
00:19:25,990 --> 00:19:25,280
homeopathic vaccines that's dangerous

500
00:19:28,470 --> 00:19:26,000
but

501
00:19:30,789 --> 00:19:28,480
above all that it's clearly unethical to

502
00:19:32,549 --> 00:19:30,799
just prescribe a placebo and pretend and

503
00:19:34,230 --> 00:19:32,559
fool a person into thinking that you're

504
00:19:36,150 --> 00:19:34,240
giving them an active medicine that

505
00:19:39,270 --> 00:19:36,160
might help them i take exception

506
00:19:41,270 --> 00:19:39,280
absolutely to being cast in this mode of

507
00:19:43,029 --> 00:19:41,280
fooling people by prescribing something

508
00:19:45,270 --> 00:19:43,039
that's merely placebo i've been in

509
00:19:48,310 --> 00:19:45,280
practice for 34 years and i can promise

510
00:19:51,510 --> 00:19:48,320
you that i've never prescribed a placebo

511
00:19:54,390 --> 00:19:51,520
let's come to the placebo effect we wish

512
00:19:56,789 --> 00:19:54,400
devoutly that the nh mrc had bothered to

513
00:19:59,310 --> 00:19:56,799
look at the laboratory evidence and also

514
00:20:01,830 --> 00:19:59,320
the veterinary studies both of which are

515
00:20:04,150 --> 00:20:01,840
placebo-free zones and the veterinary

516
00:20:05,990 --> 00:20:04,160
studies there are 57 valid studies which

517
00:20:08,470 --> 00:20:06,000
show positively for homeopathy and a

518
00:20:11,110 --> 00:20:08,480
vast range of laboratory studies the lab

519
00:20:13,029 --> 00:20:11,120
bench is a placebo free zone well does

520
00:20:15,990 --> 00:20:13,039
let me tell anna that she's never

521
00:20:19,029 --> 00:20:16,000
prescribed anything but a placebo and

522
00:20:20,710 --> 00:20:19,039
that that's the fact of first year high

523
00:20:22,870 --> 00:20:20,720
school's chemistry student could look at

524
00:20:24,710 --> 00:20:22,880
the principles of homeopathy and know

525
00:20:27,190 --> 00:20:24,720
that it's it's non-science attraction

526
00:20:28,789 --> 00:20:27,200
i'm afraid you you and the prescribing

527
00:20:30,630 --> 00:20:28,799
of placebos

528
00:20:32,549 --> 00:20:30,640
i'm very much in my comfort zone but for

529
00:20:34,950 --> 00:20:32,559
the viewer there is no evidence that any

530
00:20:36,549 --> 00:20:34,960
homeopathic preparation has any active

531
00:20:38,470 --> 00:20:36,559
ingredients that help people with their

532
00:20:40,230 --> 00:20:38,480
health it's because we're talking about

533
00:20:43,590 --> 00:20:40,240
that

534
00:20:45,590 --> 00:20:43,600
have an effect beyond a molecular level

535
00:20:47,750 --> 00:20:45,600
no but there is no such thing well be

536
00:20:50,470 --> 00:20:47,760
that as it may i'm sure that homeopathy

537
00:20:53,350 --> 00:20:50,480
having survived 200 years of in fact you

538
00:20:55,750 --> 00:20:53,360
know highly oppositional uh public court

539
00:20:57,669 --> 00:20:55,760
will survive beyond this and and clients

540
00:21:00,070 --> 00:20:57,679
and patients will continue to make a

541
00:21:01,110 --> 00:21:00,080
choice uh for homeopathy i know we're

542
00:21:03,190 --> 00:21:01,120
going to have to leave it there thank

543
00:21:12,710 --> 00:21:03,200
you so much and thank you john as well

544
00:21:18,630 --> 00:21:15,669
published on the 10th of april 2014 by

545
00:21:20,950 --> 00:21:18,640
ken harvey as reported on the drum

546
00:21:23,110 --> 00:21:20,960
website from the abc

547
00:21:26,630 --> 00:21:23,120
broadcasting in australia

548
00:21:28,789 --> 00:21:26,640
we can't have it both ways on homeopathy

549
00:21:30,950 --> 00:21:28,799
this isn't the first time homeopathy has

550
00:21:33,110 --> 00:21:30,960
been debunked but the verdict of

551
00:21:35,990 --> 00:21:33,120
australia's peak health research body

552
00:21:38,710 --> 00:21:36,000
has implications for discredited

553
00:21:41,750 --> 00:21:38,720
academic degrees and health insurance

554
00:21:43,990 --> 00:21:41,760
subsidies rights can harvey

555
00:21:45,070 --> 00:21:44,000
the national health and medical research

556
00:21:46,710 --> 00:21:45,080
council

557
00:21:48,950 --> 00:21:46,720
nhmrc

558
00:21:49,909 --> 00:21:48,960
has released a draft information paper

559
00:21:51,909 --> 00:21:49,919
titled

560
00:21:53,430 --> 00:21:51,919
evidence on the effectiveness of

561
00:21:56,950 --> 00:21:53,440
homeopathy for treating health

562
00:21:59,669 --> 00:21:56,960
conditions homeopathy is a 200 year old

563
00:22:02,070 --> 00:21:59,679
alternative medicine practice it has two

564
00:22:04,230 --> 00:22:02,080
core beliefs that are impossible to

565
00:22:05,750 --> 00:22:04,240
reconcile with modern scientific

566
00:22:09,350 --> 00:22:05,760
knowledge

567
00:22:12,310 --> 00:22:09,360
the first is that like cures like

568
00:22:14,390 --> 00:22:12,320
that is substances that cause symptoms

569
00:22:17,110 --> 00:22:14,400
in healthy people have the ability to

570
00:22:19,909 --> 00:22:17,120
treat people with similar symptoms when

571
00:22:21,669 --> 00:22:19,919
administered in minute amounts

572
00:22:24,070 --> 00:22:21,679
thus if a patient is complaining of

573
00:22:26,470 --> 00:22:24,080
difficulty sleeping a homeopath might

574
00:22:29,430 --> 00:22:26,480
prescribe coffee prepared according to

575
00:22:31,590 --> 00:22:29,440
the homeopathic principles

576
00:22:34,230 --> 00:22:31,600
the second belief is that cereal

577
00:22:37,909 --> 00:22:34,240
dilution and shaking the remedy

578
00:22:41,510 --> 00:22:37,919
potenization or dynamization releases

579
00:22:43,510 --> 00:22:41,520
immaterial and spiritual powers

580
00:22:44,470 --> 00:22:43,520
therefore making the substance more

581
00:22:46,390 --> 00:22:44,480
active

582
00:22:48,230 --> 00:22:46,400
homeopaths believe that they can treat a

583
00:22:51,029 --> 00:22:48,240
broad range of acute and chronic

584
00:22:53,430 --> 00:22:51,039
conditions in all patients of all ages

585
00:22:55,669 --> 00:22:53,440
including pregnant women mothers fathers

586
00:22:58,149 --> 00:22:55,679
babies young children teenagers and the

587
00:22:59,669 --> 00:22:58,159
elderly however based on all the

588
00:23:01,750 --> 00:22:59,679
evidence considered

589
00:23:03,909 --> 00:23:01,760
the nhmrc

590
00:23:06,470 --> 00:23:03,919
concluded that there was no health

591
00:23:09,990 --> 00:23:06,480
conditions for which there was reliable

592
00:23:12,149 --> 00:23:10,000
evidence that homeopathy was effective

593
00:23:14,870 --> 00:23:12,159
the conclusion is similar to that of the

594
00:23:17,350 --> 00:23:14,880
2010 uk house of commons science and

595
00:23:19,270 --> 00:23:17,360
technology select committee which also

596
00:23:23,110 --> 00:23:19,280
looked at the scientific evidence and

597
00:23:26,070 --> 00:23:23,120
stated quote in our view the symptomatic

598
00:23:27,909 --> 00:23:26,080
reviews and meta-analysis conclusively

599
00:23:30,710 --> 00:23:27,919
demonstrates that homeopathic products

600
00:23:33,149 --> 00:23:30,720
perform no better than placebos end

601
00:23:36,990 --> 00:23:33,159
quote so why did the

602
00:23:40,149 --> 00:23:37,000
nhmrc commission their own report the

603
00:23:42,789 --> 00:23:40,159
nhmrc has been concerned about reports

604
00:23:45,190 --> 00:23:42,799
of non-evidence-based complementary or

605
00:23:47,430 --> 00:23:45,200
alternative medicine being used in place

606
00:23:49,590 --> 00:23:47,440
of evidence-based treatments for

607
00:23:51,029 --> 00:23:49,600
patients with serious but treatable

608
00:23:52,950 --> 00:23:51,039
conditions

609
00:23:55,510 --> 00:23:52,960
the preventable deaths of penelope

610
00:23:56,870 --> 00:23:55,520
ningle and gloria thomas provide two

611
00:23:59,750 --> 00:23:56,880
examples

612
00:24:01,350 --> 00:23:59,760
in addition the nhmrc

613
00:24:04,149 --> 00:24:01,360
was asked to assist the department of

614
00:24:06,310 --> 00:24:04,159
health with a review of whether natural

615
00:24:08,710 --> 00:24:06,320
therapy should continue to receive an

616
00:24:10,230 --> 00:24:08,720
australian government rebate on private

617
00:24:12,310 --> 00:24:10,240
health insurance

618
00:24:14,070 --> 00:24:12,320
the purpose of the review is to ensure

619
00:24:17,029 --> 00:24:14,080
that taxpayer funds paid through the

620
00:24:19,750 --> 00:24:17,039
rebate subsidise only natural therapies

621
00:24:21,269 --> 00:24:19,760
that are underpinned with a credible

622
00:24:23,750 --> 00:24:21,279
evidence base

623
00:24:26,470 --> 00:24:23,760
homeopathy is one of a number of natural

624
00:24:29,350 --> 00:24:26,480
therapies for which many private health

625
00:24:32,789 --> 00:24:29,360
insurance funds provide an auxiliary

626
00:24:36,549 --> 00:24:32,799
extra cover and for which the government

627
00:24:38,789 --> 00:24:36,559
provides a 20 to 40 percent rebate the

628
00:24:41,029 --> 00:24:38,799
ancillary benefits provided by different

629
00:24:42,310 --> 00:24:41,039
funds are currently a commercial

630
00:24:43,990 --> 00:24:42,320
decision

631
00:24:47,590 --> 00:24:44,000
they take no account of clinical

632
00:24:49,830 --> 00:24:47,600
effectiveness and vary widely with

633
00:24:52,549 --> 00:24:49,840
respect to the services covered and the

634
00:24:55,510 --> 00:24:52,559
maximum money refunded per service per

635
00:24:57,590 --> 00:24:55,520
person per year while natural therapies

636
00:25:00,390 --> 00:24:57,600
only provide a relatively small

637
00:25:03,190 --> 00:25:00,400
proportion 6.5 percent

638
00:25:05,590 --> 00:25:03,200
of all ancillary benefits paid

639
00:25:07,190 --> 00:25:05,600
they are growing at a much greater rate

640
00:25:09,669 --> 00:25:07,200
than other services

641
00:25:12,470 --> 00:25:09,679
for example between september 2000 and

642
00:25:14,870 --> 00:25:12,480
september 2013 the number of dental

643
00:25:17,430 --> 00:25:14,880
services funded doubled whereas natural

644
00:25:20,870 --> 00:25:17,440
therapy services increased

645
00:25:23,350 --> 00:25:20,880
nine fold a natural therapies review

646
00:25:26,630 --> 00:25:23,360
advisory committee has been set up to

647
00:25:29,110 --> 00:25:26,640
review the findings of the nhmrc

648
00:25:30,950 --> 00:25:29,120
and provide advice to the government as

649
00:25:32,710 --> 00:25:30,960
to which therapy should continue to

650
00:25:33,710 --> 00:25:32,720
attract a rebate

651
00:25:37,029 --> 00:25:33,720
given the

652
00:25:39,190 --> 00:25:37,039
nhmrc's report on homeopathy it seems

653
00:25:41,669 --> 00:25:39,200
unlikely that homeopathy will continue

654
00:25:43,750 --> 00:25:41,679
to attract a rebate after the 1st of

655
00:25:46,149 --> 00:25:43,760
april 2015

656
00:25:47,430 --> 00:25:46,159
the date that changes are expected to be

657
00:25:51,110 --> 00:25:47,440
implemented

658
00:25:53,350 --> 00:25:51,120
the nhmrc report is also likely to

659
00:25:55,350 --> 00:25:53,360
impact on other areas

660
00:25:58,630 --> 00:25:55,360
a number of natural health colleges

661
00:26:00,789 --> 00:25:58,640
offer degrees and diplomas in homeopathy

662
00:26:03,190 --> 00:26:00,799
for example the endeavor college of

663
00:26:06,710 --> 00:26:03,200
natural health notes that its bachelor

664
00:26:08,710 --> 00:26:06,720
of health science homeopathy is quote

665
00:26:11,269 --> 00:26:08,720
accredited through the office of higher

666
00:26:13,750 --> 00:26:11,279
education and as such students are

667
00:26:16,710 --> 00:26:13,760
entitled to the federal government's fee

668
00:26:18,230 --> 00:26:16,720
help scheme which is similar to the

669
00:26:20,630 --> 00:26:18,240
hex system

670
00:26:23,590 --> 00:26:20,640
and open to any australian citizen

671
00:26:25,430 --> 00:26:23,600
undertaking a degree unquote

672
00:26:28,149 --> 00:26:25,440
if one arm of government states that

673
00:26:30,230 --> 00:26:28,159
homeopathy lacks an evidence base

674
00:26:33,430 --> 00:26:30,240
should another accredit homeopathy

675
00:26:36,149 --> 00:26:33,440
courses and assist with student fees

676
00:26:38,789 --> 00:26:36,159
naturopaths may also have to reconsider

677
00:26:41,590 --> 00:26:38,799
their treatment methods one of which is

678
00:26:43,990 --> 00:26:41,600
homeopathy indeed a number of other

679
00:26:46,549 --> 00:26:44,000
diagnostic and treatment modalities used

680
00:26:48,630 --> 00:26:46,559
by naturopaths are in the scope of the

681
00:26:51,510 --> 00:26:48,640
government review and are currently

682
00:26:55,190 --> 00:26:51,520
being evaluated by the nhmrc

683
00:26:56,470 --> 00:26:55,200
including iridology reflexology and

684
00:26:58,470 --> 00:26:56,480
herbalism

685
00:27:00,630 --> 00:26:58,480
a survey of general practitioner

686
00:27:02,549 --> 00:27:00,640
referral and practice in rural and

687
00:27:05,029 --> 00:27:02,559
regional new south wales published in

688
00:27:09,269 --> 00:27:05,039
2013 shows that only

689
00:27:10,470 --> 00:27:09,279
0.5 percent of 600 respondents

690
00:27:13,190 --> 00:27:10,480
gps

691
00:27:16,470 --> 00:27:13,200
had prescribed homeopathy in the last 12

692
00:27:18,470 --> 00:27:16,480
months and only 8.5 percent referred

693
00:27:21,590 --> 00:27:18,480
patients for homeopathic treatment over

694
00:27:23,590 --> 00:27:21,600
the same period nearly two-thirds of gps

695
00:27:25,750 --> 00:27:23,600
reported that they would not refer a

696
00:27:27,590 --> 00:27:25,760
patient for homeopathy under any

697
00:27:29,430 --> 00:27:27,600
circumstances

698
00:27:32,549 --> 00:27:29,440
it will be interesting to see if the

699
00:27:35,350 --> 00:27:32,559
nhmrc report changes such patterns in

700
00:27:38,470 --> 00:27:35,360
the uk homeopathic prescriptions have

701
00:27:41,110 --> 00:27:38,480
undergone a steep decline in the past 15

702
00:27:43,750 --> 00:27:41,120
years pharmacists who sell homeopathic

703
00:27:46,549 --> 00:27:43,760
remedies such as the brower product

704
00:27:49,430 --> 00:27:46,559
range may also need to have a rethink

705
00:27:51,750 --> 00:27:49,440
especially as the pharmacy board code of

706
00:27:55,029 --> 00:27:51,760
conduct includes

707
00:27:57,110 --> 00:27:55,039
quote providing treatment options based

708
00:27:59,590 --> 00:27:57,120
on the best available information and

709
00:28:01,590 --> 00:27:59,600
not influenced by financial gains or

710
00:28:03,430 --> 00:28:01,600
incentives end quote

711
00:28:05,909 --> 00:28:03,440
companies who provide homeopathic

712
00:28:09,029 --> 00:28:05,919
remedies may also have to update their

713
00:28:11,430 --> 00:28:09,039
professional educational information

714
00:28:13,190 --> 00:28:11,440
finally recognizing that patients often

715
00:28:15,750 --> 00:28:13,200
don't inform their doctors about the

716
00:28:19,590 --> 00:28:15,760
complementary medicines they are taking

717
00:28:21,909 --> 00:28:19,600
and doctors don't often ask the nhmrc

718
00:28:23,590 --> 00:28:21,919
has also produced another useful

719
00:28:25,830 --> 00:28:23,600
document

720
00:28:27,750 --> 00:28:25,840
talking with your patients about

721
00:28:29,590 --> 00:28:27,760
complementary medicine

722
00:28:32,389 --> 00:28:29,600
while intended to be a resource for

723
00:28:34,789 --> 00:28:32,399
clinicians it is equally valuable for

724
00:28:37,190 --> 00:28:34,799
patients and the general public

725
00:28:39,110 --> 00:28:37,200
dr ken harvey is an adjunct associate

726
00:28:40,950 --> 00:28:39,120
professor at the school of public health

727
00:28:42,389 --> 00:28:40,960
and preventable medicine monash

728
00:28:44,950 --> 00:28:42,399
university

729
00:28:47,190 --> 00:28:44,960
he represents the consumer health forum

730
00:28:56,230 --> 00:28:47,200
on the natural therapies review advisory

731
00:29:00,230 --> 00:28:58,549
hello this is joe alabaster

732
00:29:01,830 --> 00:29:00,240
last week you heard richard saunders

733
00:29:03,909 --> 00:29:01,840
mentioned that the better health channel

734
00:29:05,350 --> 00:29:03,919
was promoting world homeopathy awareness

735
00:29:06,470 --> 00:29:05,360
week on the events section of their

736
00:29:08,310 --> 00:29:06,480
website

737
00:29:10,830 --> 00:29:08,320
homeopathy was being associated with

738
00:29:13,190 --> 00:29:10,840
men's health issues including prostate

739
00:29:14,549 --> 00:29:13,200
cancer the better health channel fully

740
00:29:17,110 --> 00:29:14,559
funded by the state government of

741
00:29:18,710 --> 00:29:17,120
victoria describes itself as a provider

742
00:29:20,389 --> 00:29:18,720
of quote

743
00:29:23,510 --> 00:29:20,399
health and medical information that is

744
00:29:25,830 --> 00:29:23,520
quality assured reliable up-to-date easy

745
00:29:28,230 --> 00:29:25,840
to understand regularly reviewed and

746
00:29:29,830 --> 00:29:28,240
locally relevant end quote

747
00:29:31,510 --> 00:29:29,840
i've actually used their website many

748
00:29:33,269 --> 00:29:31,520
times as i've found their fact sheets on

749
00:29:35,350 --> 00:29:33,279
medical conditions to be accurate and

750
00:29:36,789 --> 00:29:35,360
accessible in fact i've linked to them

751
00:29:38,470 --> 00:29:36,799
repeatedly from my blog at

752
00:29:40,070 --> 00:29:38,480
evidenceplace.net

753
00:29:41,269 --> 00:29:40,080
when discussing vaccine preventable

754
00:29:43,029 --> 00:29:41,279
diseases

755
00:29:44,870 --> 00:29:43,039
i know of many people both healthcare

756
00:29:46,630 --> 00:29:44,880
professionals and lay people who regard

757
00:29:48,310 --> 00:29:46,640
better health channel highly and refer

758
00:29:50,070 --> 00:29:48,320
others to their website

759
00:29:51,669 --> 00:29:50,080
unfortunately there is an aspect to

760
00:29:53,510 --> 00:29:51,679
better health channel that advocates of

761
00:29:54,630 --> 00:29:53,520
evidence-based medicine and not entirely

762
00:29:56,230 --> 00:29:54,640
happy with

763
00:29:59,269 --> 00:29:56,240
some of their pages on alternative

764
00:30:00,630 --> 00:29:59,279
medicine are rather uncritical in tone

765
00:30:02,470 --> 00:30:00,640
often written in conjunction with

766
00:30:04,230 --> 00:30:02,480
professional associations of old med

767
00:30:06,149 --> 00:30:04,240
practitioners descriptions of

768
00:30:08,310 --> 00:30:06,159
alternative therapies are provided with

769
00:30:09,990 --> 00:30:08,320
no mention of efficacy or even whether

770
00:30:11,909 --> 00:30:10,000
the mechanisms they're based on are all

771
00:30:13,590 --> 00:30:11,919
that plausible i'm looking at you

772
00:30:15,750 --> 00:30:13,600
naturopathy with your vitalism and

773
00:30:17,590 --> 00:30:15,760
invisible life force

774
00:30:19,590 --> 00:30:17,600
as a government-funded website which is

775
00:30:21,669 --> 00:30:19,600
trusted and relied upon i think that the

776
00:30:22,710 --> 00:30:21,679
better health channel can and should do

777
00:30:24,630 --> 00:30:22,720
better

778
00:30:27,029 --> 00:30:24,640
world homeopathy awareness week is upon

779
00:30:28,870 --> 00:30:27,039
us and this year skeptics are again very

780
00:30:32,070 --> 00:30:28,880
much embracing the opportunity to spread

781
00:30:33,990 --> 00:30:32,080
awareness that homeopathy is bulldozed

782
00:30:35,510 --> 00:30:34,000
one evening last week i was curious as

783
00:30:37,350 --> 00:30:35,520
to whether any events were occurring

784
00:30:39,590 --> 00:30:37,360
here in australia to promote awareness

785
00:30:41,830 --> 00:30:39,600
of homeopathy either being run by its

786
00:30:43,269 --> 00:30:41,840
proponents or its critics

787
00:30:44,950 --> 00:30:43,279
in doing a google search i was

788
00:30:47,029 --> 00:30:44,960
incredibly disappointed to find that on

789
00:30:49,590 --> 00:30:47,039
the first page of results there was a

790
00:30:51,350 --> 00:30:49,600
link to better health channel's website

791
00:30:53,269 --> 00:30:51,360
on their events page was a listing for

792
00:30:55,350 --> 00:30:53,279
world homeopathy awareness week which

793
00:30:57,430 --> 00:30:55,360
read quote

794
00:31:00,470 --> 00:30:57,440
event world homeopathy awareness week

795
00:31:03,669 --> 00:31:00,480
2014 organization world homeopathy

796
00:31:05,350 --> 00:31:03,679
awareness organization description

797
00:31:08,389 --> 00:31:05,360
this year's theme for world homeopathy

798
00:31:10,710 --> 00:31:08,399
awareness week from 10 to 16 april 2014

799
00:31:12,149 --> 00:31:10,720
is men's health for this theme we are

800
00:31:14,470 --> 00:31:12,159
thinking of the typical men's health

801
00:31:17,430 --> 00:31:14,480
problems such as impotency erection

802
00:31:19,830 --> 00:31:17,440
problems infertility prostate problems

803
00:31:21,750 --> 00:31:19,840
prostatitis prostate cancer enlarged

804
00:31:23,669 --> 00:31:21,760
prostate end quote a

805
00:31:25,190 --> 00:31:23,679
government-sponsored website trusted by

806
00:31:27,669 --> 00:31:25,200
the public and many medical

807
00:31:29,190 --> 00:31:27,679
professionals to provide reliable and

808
00:31:31,029 --> 00:31:29,200
accurate health information was

809
00:31:33,029 --> 00:31:31,039
promoting an event which suggested that

810
00:31:36,070 --> 00:31:33,039
homeopathy had a place in the treatment

811
00:31:37,750 --> 00:31:36,080
of men's health issues including cancer

812
00:31:39,430 --> 00:31:37,760
not happy

813
00:31:41,029 --> 00:31:39,440
fortunately there are actions that

814
00:31:42,470 --> 00:31:41,039
members of the public can take when we

815
00:31:44,149 --> 00:31:42,480
come across potentially dangerous

816
00:31:46,310 --> 00:31:44,159
misinformation published by those in a

817
00:31:48,230 --> 00:31:46,320
position of responsibility especially

818
00:31:49,830 --> 00:31:48,240
when they're government funded

819
00:31:51,669 --> 00:31:49,840
the better health channel has a feedback

820
00:31:53,110 --> 00:31:51,679
form at the bottom of their page they

821
00:31:54,789 --> 00:31:53,120
also have a twitter account and a

822
00:31:56,630 --> 00:31:54,799
facebook page

823
00:31:58,070 --> 00:31:56,640
many people myself included have

824
00:31:59,909 --> 00:31:58,080
contacted the better health channel in

825
00:32:01,509 --> 00:31:59,919
the past regarding their fact pages and

826
00:32:03,190 --> 00:32:01,519
alternative therapies

827
00:32:05,190 --> 00:32:03,200
form letter replies can be a little

828
00:32:06,870 --> 00:32:05,200
disheartening particularly when no

829
00:32:08,630 --> 00:32:06,880
change seems to result

830
00:32:10,710 --> 00:32:08,640
however in the case of the world

831
00:32:13,029 --> 00:32:10,720
homeopathy awareness week event listing

832
00:32:14,710 --> 00:32:13,039
it was worth trying again

833
00:32:15,990 --> 00:32:14,720
after sending the better health channels

834
00:32:17,509 --> 00:32:16,000
some quick and polite feedback

835
00:32:19,269 --> 00:32:17,519
expressing my disappointment that they

836
00:32:21,190 --> 00:32:19,279
would promote world homeopathy awareness

837
00:32:23,430 --> 00:32:21,200
week i began chatting with friends and

838
00:32:25,430 --> 00:32:23,440
fellow skeptics the skeptics in

839
00:32:27,029 --> 00:32:25,440
australia facebook page was a fantastic

840
00:32:28,950 --> 00:32:27,039
way to reach many people who found the

841
00:32:30,470 --> 00:32:28,960
event listing concerning as was

842
00:32:32,389 --> 00:32:30,480
utilizing twitter

843
00:32:33,830 --> 00:32:32,399
a mention from the skeptic's own podcast

844
00:32:36,149 --> 00:32:33,840
helped get the word out to a significant

845
00:32:38,269 --> 00:32:36,159
number of people as well

846
00:32:40,630 --> 00:32:38,279
in a wonderful case of good timing the

847
00:32:42,389 --> 00:32:40,640
nhmrc's draft information paper on

848
00:32:44,389 --> 00:32:42,399
homeopathy was released later that

849
00:32:46,149 --> 00:32:44,399
evening garnering more public support

850
00:32:47,350 --> 00:32:46,159
and awareness of homeopathy's lack of

851
00:32:48,630 --> 00:32:47,360
efficacy

852
00:32:50,389 --> 00:32:48,640
people wrote to the better health

853
00:32:53,029 --> 00:32:50,399
channel tweeted using their twitter

854
00:32:54,710 --> 00:32:53,039
handle posted on their facebook page

855
00:32:56,230 --> 00:32:54,720
others wrote directly to the victorian

856
00:32:58,389 --> 00:32:56,240
health minister's office to express

857
00:33:00,149 --> 00:32:58,399
their concerns

858
00:33:01,909 --> 00:33:00,159
a few days later which happened to be

859
00:33:03,990 --> 00:33:01,919
the first day of world homeopathy

860
00:33:06,070 --> 00:33:04,000
awareness week some very heartening news

861
00:33:07,669 --> 00:33:06,080
arrived i received an email from the

862
00:33:10,470 --> 00:33:07,679
better health channel thanking me for my

863
00:33:12,630 --> 00:33:10,480
feedback and stating that quote

864
00:33:14,630 --> 00:33:12,640
complementary and alternative medicines

865
00:33:15,830 --> 00:33:14,640
have high use amongst health consumers

866
00:33:18,950 --> 00:33:15,840
in australia

867
00:33:20,630 --> 00:33:18,960
in publishing bhc information on cam we

868
00:33:21,990 --> 00:33:20,640
recognize the need to address a range of

869
00:33:24,710 --> 00:33:22,000
health concerns and questions of

870
00:33:26,310 --> 00:33:24,720
interest to visitors to our site our aim

871
00:33:28,950 --> 00:33:26,320
is to provide the public with suitable

872
00:33:31,029 --> 00:33:28,960
information about cam without in any

873
00:33:33,110 --> 00:33:31,039
sense promoting it as a replacement for

874
00:33:34,789 --> 00:33:33,120
conventional medicine or endorsing all

875
00:33:36,950 --> 00:33:34,799
of the claims made by the many different

876
00:33:39,350 --> 00:33:36,960
streams within the field

877
00:33:41,509 --> 00:33:39,360
the bhc event calendar is an information

878
00:33:43,350 --> 00:33:41,519
resource and the placement of an event

879
00:33:45,029 --> 00:33:43,360
in the bhc calendar is not an

880
00:33:46,070 --> 00:33:45,039
endorsement or recommendation for that

881
00:33:49,669 --> 00:33:46,080
event

882
00:33:51,509 --> 00:33:49,679
are for information only

883
00:33:53,669 --> 00:33:51,519
we do reserve the right to moderate and

884
00:33:55,830 --> 00:33:53,679
remove events and in light of the recent

885
00:33:57,509 --> 00:33:55,840
considerations we have decided to remove

886
00:33:58,870 --> 00:33:57,519
the event from our health events

887
00:33:59,750 --> 00:33:58,880
calendar

888
00:34:01,269 --> 00:33:59,760
well

889
00:34:02,310 --> 00:34:01,279
kudos to the better health channel for

890
00:34:04,230 --> 00:34:02,320
coming down on the side of

891
00:34:05,990 --> 00:34:04,240
evidence-based medicine

892
00:34:07,509 --> 00:34:06,000
i'm also pleased to report that better

893
00:34:09,349 --> 00:34:07,519
health channel are currently reviewing

894
00:34:11,349 --> 00:34:09,359
the contents of their homeopathy fact

895
00:34:13,669 --> 00:34:11,359
page which many people also express

896
00:34:15,990 --> 00:34:13,679
concern about when contacting them both

897
00:34:17,909 --> 00:34:16,000
directly and via social media

898
00:34:18,950 --> 00:34:17,919
in an email to me about the review they

899
00:34:22,069 --> 00:34:18,960
have written

900
00:34:24,550 --> 00:34:22,079
quote as part of each review we aim to

901
00:34:26,470 --> 00:34:24,560
take into account the current research

902
00:34:29,190 --> 00:34:26,480
findings and we'll be looking at the

903
00:34:31,430 --> 00:34:29,200
nhmrc's draft information paper in this

904
00:34:32,629 --> 00:34:31,440
case end quote

905
00:34:34,389 --> 00:34:32,639
the better health channel's new

906
00:34:36,550 --> 00:34:34,399
homeopathy fact sheet will certainly be

907
00:34:38,149 --> 00:34:36,560
something to look out for in the interim

908
00:34:39,829 --> 00:34:38,159
though the immediate result of a group

909
00:34:42,149 --> 00:34:39,839
of people writing letters and taking to

910
00:34:43,669 --> 00:34:42,159
social media has been fantastic

911
00:34:45,669 --> 00:34:43,679
the better health channel is now no

912
00:34:47,669 --> 00:34:45,679
longer promoting an event that suggests

913
00:34:49,190 --> 00:34:47,679
that a non-evidence-based practice has a

914
00:34:50,790 --> 00:34:49,200
place in the treatment of men's health

915
00:34:52,550 --> 00:34:50,800
issues

916
00:34:54,310 --> 00:34:52,560
while the removal of the event is merely

917
00:34:57,109 --> 00:34:54,320
a drop in the ocean of raising public

918
00:34:58,790 --> 00:34:57,119
awareness that homeopathy is bulldust

919
00:35:01,030 --> 00:34:58,800
unlike an active ingredient within a

920
00:35:03,349 --> 00:35:01,040
homeopathic dilution the results of our

921
00:35:09,589 --> 00:35:03,359
skeptical activism are detectable and

922
00:35:15,270 --> 00:35:13,030
and now the views from homeopathy plus

923
00:35:18,550 --> 00:35:15,280
homeopathy plus don't forget won the

924
00:35:20,310 --> 00:35:18,560
australian skeptics ben spoon award in

925
00:35:23,510 --> 00:35:20,320
2012

926
00:35:26,310 --> 00:35:23,520
from homeopathy plus dot com dot a u

927
00:35:30,550 --> 00:35:26,320
no evidence or poor methodology

928
00:35:32,550 --> 00:35:30,560
the nhmrc homeopathy draft report

929
00:35:34,310 --> 00:35:32,560
april 2014

930
00:35:38,230 --> 00:35:34,320
the national health and medical research

931
00:35:40,470 --> 00:35:38,240
council nhmic released its revised draft

932
00:35:42,150 --> 00:35:40,480
document evidence on the effectiveness

933
00:35:46,310 --> 00:35:42,160
of homeopathy for treating health

934
00:35:47,190 --> 00:35:46,320
conditions on april 9 2014 it states in

935
00:35:49,349 --> 00:35:47,200
part

936
00:35:51,270 --> 00:35:49,359
quote there is no reliable evidence that

937
00:35:53,510 --> 00:35:51,280
homeopathy is effective for treating

938
00:35:56,150 --> 00:35:53,520
health conditions end quote the

939
00:35:59,270 --> 00:35:56,160
worldwide homeopathic community is both

940
00:36:02,069 --> 00:35:59,280
dismayed but unsurprised by the report

941
00:36:04,150 --> 00:36:02,079
as the nhmrc working group was

942
00:36:06,230 --> 00:36:04,160
compromised from its inception by

943
00:36:08,870 --> 00:36:06,240
failing to have at least one qualified

944
00:36:11,430 --> 00:36:08,880
homeopath on its panel though several

945
00:36:13,750 --> 00:36:11,440
suitable candidates were presented

946
00:36:14,950 --> 00:36:13,760
different principles underpin studies

947
00:36:18,390 --> 00:36:14,960
and practice

948
00:36:20,630 --> 00:36:18,400
when examining the nhmrc draft report it

949
00:36:22,550 --> 00:36:20,640
is important to realize that homeopathy

950
00:36:24,310 --> 00:36:22,560
is practiced by very different

951
00:36:26,630 --> 00:36:24,320
principles to those of conventional

952
00:36:30,069 --> 00:36:26,640
medicine in drawing its conclusions on

953
00:36:32,470 --> 00:36:30,079
homeopathy the nhmrc overlooks studies

954
00:36:34,630 --> 00:36:32,480
based on these principles and clinical

955
00:36:37,349 --> 00:36:34,640
practice in favor of less suitable

956
00:36:39,990 --> 00:36:37,359
studies that focused on isolated disease

957
00:36:42,069 --> 00:36:40,000
conditions studies much more suited to

958
00:36:44,630 --> 00:36:42,079
the allopathic

959
00:36:46,950 --> 00:36:44,640
conventional model of treatment this

960
00:36:49,270 --> 00:36:46,960
alone has had a negative impact on the

961
00:36:52,069 --> 00:36:49,280
nhmrc findings

962
00:36:53,030 --> 00:36:52,079
aha recommends a more comprehensive

963
00:36:55,109 --> 00:36:53,040
approach

964
00:36:58,069 --> 00:36:55,119
to overcome this problem the australian

965
00:37:01,349 --> 00:36:58,079
homeopathic association has recommended

966
00:37:04,069 --> 00:37:01,359
the nih mrc take a quote more

967
00:37:06,550 --> 00:37:04,079
comprehensive approach and quote in its

968
00:37:08,790 --> 00:37:06,560
analysis of homeopathy so that evidence

969
00:37:10,550 --> 00:37:08,800
for its effectiveness is more easily

970
00:37:14,470 --> 00:37:10,560
identified and studied

971
00:37:16,390 --> 00:37:14,480
atms says no evidence of ineffectiveness

972
00:37:19,589 --> 00:37:16,400
the australian traditional medical

973
00:37:21,750 --> 00:37:19,599
society atms says the draft report has

974
00:37:24,310 --> 00:37:21,760
no compelling evidence of a lack of

975
00:37:26,630 --> 00:37:24,320
effectiveness with homeopathy just a

976
00:37:28,230 --> 00:37:26,640
lack of high quality studies

977
00:37:30,710 --> 00:37:28,240
they call on the federal government to

978
00:37:33,030 --> 00:37:30,720
support and fund these studies

979
00:37:36,310 --> 00:37:33,040
just as it does for other therapies

980
00:37:38,390 --> 00:37:36,320
the atms advises it has already provided

981
00:37:41,510 --> 00:37:38,400
numerous examples of studies in which

982
00:37:43,990 --> 00:37:41,520
homeopathy is superior to placebo to the

983
00:37:46,710 --> 00:37:44,000
chief medical officer and says that to

984
00:37:48,470 --> 00:37:46,720
place the report in context only 30

985
00:37:50,790 --> 00:37:48,480
percent of all conventional medical

986
00:37:52,870 --> 00:37:50,800
procedures are supported by a strong

987
00:37:54,390 --> 00:37:52,880
evidence base according to the british

988
00:37:57,270 --> 00:37:54,400
medical journal

989
00:37:59,430 --> 00:37:57,280
prophylactic and other studies excluded

990
00:38:02,069 --> 00:37:59,440
a significant amount of evidence for the

991
00:38:05,030 --> 00:38:02,079
effectiveness of homeopathy has been

992
00:38:07,670 --> 00:38:05,040
lost by the nhmrc exclusion of

993
00:38:09,750 --> 00:38:07,680
homeopathic prophylactic studies

994
00:38:13,030 --> 00:38:09,760
some of the largest observational

995
00:38:16,310 --> 00:38:13,040
studies ever conducted the nhmrc

996
00:38:18,230 --> 00:38:16,320
also says it will not accept studies on

997
00:38:20,550 --> 00:38:18,240
quote the use of homeopathy for

998
00:38:22,630 --> 00:38:20,560
preventing health conditions including

999
00:38:25,510 --> 00:38:22,640
homeopathic vaccines

1000
00:38:28,230 --> 00:38:25,520
or whether homeopathy maintains and or

1001
00:38:30,470 --> 00:38:28,240
enhances general health as part of its

1002
00:38:32,390 --> 00:38:30,480
call for further submissions

1003
00:38:34,790 --> 00:38:32,400
as these studies provide some of the

1004
00:38:37,510 --> 00:38:34,800
clearest evidence of homeopathy's

1005
00:38:40,470 --> 00:38:37,520
effectiveness the question must be asked

1006
00:38:42,150 --> 00:38:40,480
why are they along with animal studies

1007
00:38:43,829 --> 00:38:42,160
being excluded

1008
00:38:46,950 --> 00:38:43,839
at what cost

1009
00:38:48,950 --> 00:38:46,960
the nhmrc draft report has been more

1010
00:38:51,030 --> 00:38:48,960
than three years in the making and so

1011
00:38:54,950 --> 00:38:51,040
far according to reports

1012
00:38:56,630 --> 00:38:54,960
has cost the taxpayer 140 000

1013
00:38:58,950 --> 00:38:56,640
all the more reason to ensure its

1014
00:39:01,190 --> 00:38:58,960
integrity but is that all this report

1015
00:39:03,270 --> 00:39:01,200
will cost according to the world health

1016
00:39:05,190 --> 00:39:03,280
organization homeopathy is the most

1017
00:39:06,550 --> 00:39:05,200
widely used alternative medicine in the

1018
00:39:09,270 --> 00:39:06,560
world today

1019
00:39:11,990 --> 00:39:09,280
and second only to conventional medicine

1020
00:39:14,069 --> 00:39:12,000
many millions of people rely on it as a

1021
00:39:17,030 --> 00:39:14,079
primary form of healthcare

1022
00:39:19,270 --> 00:39:17,040
and they know it works the nhmrc

1023
00:39:21,030 --> 00:39:19,280
continues to exclude important evidence

1024
00:39:23,190 --> 00:39:21,040
from its examination

1025
00:39:25,349 --> 00:39:23,200
and if it chooses to word its final

1026
00:39:27,470 --> 00:39:25,359
report in such a way that it has been

1027
00:39:30,069 --> 00:39:27,480
used to discredit homeopathy and

1028
00:39:32,790 --> 00:39:30,079
disenfranchise australian uses of

1029
00:39:34,790 --> 00:39:32,800
homeopathy the greatest cost of all will

1030
00:39:37,589 --> 00:39:34,800
be borne by the australian government

1031
00:39:38,550 --> 00:39:37,599
the scientific community and the nhmrc

1032
00:39:41,109 --> 00:39:38,560
itself

1033
00:39:42,870 --> 00:39:41,119
trust lost is never easily regained and

1034
00:39:46,470 --> 00:39:42,880
that is what is truly at stake with this

1035
00:39:49,430 --> 00:39:46,480
report call for submissions the nhmrc is

1036
00:39:51,670 --> 00:39:49,440
now calling for final public submissions

1037
00:39:54,150 --> 00:39:51,680
and comment on the draft information

1038
00:39:56,550 --> 00:39:54,160
paper anyone can make a submission of

1039
00:39:58,550 --> 00:39:56,560
additional evidence it does not have to

1040
00:40:01,510 --> 00:39:58,560
come from within australia

1041
00:40:15,430 --> 00:40:01,520
the deadline closes on monday 26th may

1042
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:40,710
foreign

1043
00:40:44,390 --> 00:40:42,390
hey everybody my name is kirill and i'm

1044
00:40:46,310 --> 00:40:44,400
the founder of skeptic society russia

1045
00:40:48,230 --> 00:40:46,320
come visit us in moscow in our bi-weekly

1046
00:40:50,230 --> 00:40:48,240
meetings and also listen to our weekly

1047
00:40:51,990 --> 00:40:50,240
podcast which is called skeptic and the

1048
00:41:05,990 --> 00:40:52,000
site where you can find all of that is

1049
00:41:10,390 --> 00:41:08,790
welcome to a week in science from rios

1050
00:41:11,349 --> 00:41:10,400
bringing you the science you need to

1051
00:41:13,510 --> 00:41:11,359
know

1052
00:41:15,349 --> 00:41:13,520
seven billion is a lot of anything let

1053
00:41:17,750 --> 00:41:15,359
alone people but that's what our

1054
00:41:20,150 --> 00:41:17,760
population hit in 2011.

1055
00:41:25,589 --> 00:41:20,160
so how do we compare to other species

1056
00:41:29,430 --> 00:41:27,190
let's begin by putting these sorts of

1057
00:41:31,349 --> 00:41:29,440
numbers into perspective how do humans

1058
00:41:32,470 --> 00:41:31,359
rank against other populations in the

1059
00:41:34,870 --> 00:41:32,480
world

1060
00:41:37,349 --> 00:41:34,880
by far and away the most popular species

1061
00:41:40,069 --> 00:41:37,359
are bacteria there are around four

1062
00:41:42,150 --> 00:41:40,079
quadrillion quadrillion of them and this

1063
00:41:44,710 --> 00:41:42,160
easily outnumbers all other animal

1064
00:41:47,349 --> 00:41:44,720
populations combined moving on to larger

1065
00:41:49,510 --> 00:41:47,359
beings there's an estimated 10 billion

1066
00:41:52,069 --> 00:41:49,520
billion ants in the world weighing

1067
00:41:54,710 --> 00:41:52,079
almost 10 times that of humans who

1068
00:41:55,990 --> 00:41:54,720
counted them i have no idea and who

1069
00:41:58,150 --> 00:41:56,000
would have thought there are more than

1070
00:42:00,950 --> 00:41:58,160
20 billion domestic chickens bred for

1071
00:42:02,950 --> 00:42:00,960
meat and eggs

1072
00:42:04,790 --> 00:42:02,960
it's hardly surprising but it is

1073
00:42:06,630 --> 00:42:04,800
interesting that the top 10 mammal

1074
00:42:09,190 --> 00:42:06,640
populations are humans and our

1075
00:42:11,109 --> 00:42:09,200
domesticated friends farming livestock

1076
00:42:13,349 --> 00:42:11,119
has seen populations of cattle and sheep

1077
00:42:15,750 --> 00:42:13,359
sort over 1 billion each

1078
00:42:17,990 --> 00:42:15,760
and pets like cats and dogs are around

1079
00:42:19,670 --> 00:42:18,000
500 million each thanks to living

1080
00:42:22,309 --> 00:42:19,680
closely with humans

1081
00:42:23,430 --> 00:42:22,319
but who is number one well it's hard to

1082
00:42:25,349 --> 00:42:23,440
work out

1083
00:42:27,349 --> 00:42:25,359
evidence suggests though that humans may

1084
00:42:29,190 --> 00:42:27,359
only be third on the list following mice

1085
00:42:31,349 --> 00:42:29,200
and rats which are not strictly

1086
00:42:34,069 --> 00:42:31,359
domesticated but do like to hang around

1087
00:42:36,230 --> 00:42:34,079
humans by comparison most wild mammal

1088
00:42:38,550 --> 00:42:36,240
populations are falling rapidly due to

1089
00:42:41,910 --> 00:42:38,560
humans moving in on their habitats there

1090
00:42:46,630 --> 00:42:41,920
are just 500 000 elephants 200 000

1091
00:42:48,230 --> 00:42:46,640
chimpanzees 120 000 big cats and 20 000

1092
00:42:50,710 --> 00:42:48,240
polar bears left

1093
00:42:52,790 --> 00:42:50,720
and yes we're directly responsible

1094
00:42:55,750 --> 00:42:52,800
and now four fast facts about global

1095
00:43:00,870 --> 00:42:57,670
china has the biggest population in the

1096
00:43:03,829 --> 00:43:00,880
world with 1.35 billion people closely

1097
00:43:06,390 --> 00:43:03,839
followed by india at 1.21 billion

1098
00:43:08,230 --> 00:43:06,400
together they're home to 37 of the

1099
00:43:10,550 --> 00:43:08,240
world's population the highest

1100
00:43:14,550 --> 00:43:10,560
population growth rate ever recorded was

1101
00:43:17,829 --> 00:43:14,560
in 1963 and the lowest during 2011. it

1102
00:43:20,790 --> 00:43:17,839
took 123 years to grow from 1 to 2

1103
00:43:24,150 --> 00:43:20,800
billion people but it took just 13 years

1104
00:43:26,349 --> 00:43:24,160
to grow from 6 to 7 billion finally the

1105
00:43:30,390 --> 00:43:26,359
current world population is about

1106
00:43:33,109 --> 00:43:30,400
7.19 billion increasing by 2.3 people

1107
00:43:38,150 --> 00:43:33,119
every second the planet is expected to

1108
00:43:42,230 --> 00:43:40,150
that's it for this week in science for

1109
00:43:45,829 --> 00:43:42,240
more information on global population go

1110
00:43:47,910 --> 00:43:45,839
to the rio's website r-i-a-u-s

1111
00:43:50,710 --> 00:43:47,920
dot org dot a-u

1112
00:43:53,270 --> 00:43:50,720
follow us on twitter at rios and like us

1113
00:44:04,550 --> 00:43:53,280
on facebook i'm tanya meyer and we'll

1114
00:44:09,750 --> 00:44:06,630
the skeptic magazine the journal from

1115
00:44:11,910 --> 00:44:09,760
australian skeptics subscribe online to

1116
00:44:16,710 --> 00:44:11,920
the world's second oldest skeptical

1117
00:44:23,270 --> 00:44:19,510
and click the publications link

1118
00:44:24,550 --> 00:44:23,280
you can also find there over 30 years of

1119
00:44:26,069 --> 00:44:24,560
back issues

1120
00:44:28,790 --> 00:44:26,079
free to download

1121
00:44:38,950 --> 00:44:28,800
the skeptic the magazine from australian

1122
00:44:46,230 --> 00:44:41,910
now it's time for dr raichi reports with

1123
00:44:51,030 --> 00:44:48,309
hello listeners and welcome to dr

1124
00:44:53,270 --> 00:44:51,040
ritchie reports well this week i am

1125
00:44:55,510 --> 00:44:53,280
reporting on a news item that announced

1126
00:44:56,470 --> 00:44:55,520
the results of a melbourne acupuncture

1127
00:44:57,910 --> 00:44:56,480
study

1128
00:45:00,470 --> 00:44:57,920
proclaiming in the headline that

1129
00:45:02,829 --> 00:45:00,480
acupuncture is as effective as drugs in

1130
00:45:05,430 --> 00:45:02,839
treating pain trial

1131
00:45:07,670 --> 00:45:05,440
shows so the article begins with an

1132
00:45:09,910 --> 00:45:07,680
acupuncture trial in four emergency

1133
00:45:13,030 --> 00:45:09,920
departments in melbourne has found it is

1134
00:45:15,510 --> 00:45:13,040
just as good as drugs in relieving lower

1135
00:45:17,190 --> 00:45:15,520
back pain and that from sprained ankles

1136
00:45:19,430 --> 00:45:17,200
and migraines

1137
00:45:21,829 --> 00:45:19,440
emergency physicians at the alfred

1138
00:45:23,270 --> 00:45:21,839
northern cabrini and epworth hospitals

1139
00:45:25,109 --> 00:45:23,280
partnered with the royal melbourne

1140
00:45:27,670 --> 00:45:25,119
institute of technology's school of

1141
00:45:30,150 --> 00:45:27,680
health sciences to see if acupuncture

1142
00:45:32,470 --> 00:45:30,160
could relieve acute pain in hundreds of

1143
00:45:34,710 --> 00:45:32,480
patients presenting to hospital

1144
00:45:37,349 --> 00:45:34,720
with either lower back pain sprained

1145
00:45:40,069 --> 00:45:37,359
ankles or migraines okay sounds good

1146
00:45:42,230 --> 00:45:40,079
right but then there's this

1147
00:45:44,950 --> 00:45:42,240
while data from the study is still being

1148
00:45:46,870 --> 00:45:44,960
analyzed and finalized for publication

1149
00:45:49,430 --> 00:45:46,880
in a medical journal

1150
00:45:51,270 --> 00:45:49,440
one of the researchers dr michael benmir

1151
00:45:53,510 --> 00:45:51,280
said it showed acupuncture offered the

1152
00:45:56,309 --> 00:45:53,520
same level of pain relief as analgesic

1153
00:45:58,309 --> 00:45:56,319
drugs when patients rated their pain one

1154
00:46:00,309 --> 00:45:58,319
hour after treatment

1155
00:46:02,790 --> 00:46:00,319
whoa whoa

1156
00:46:04,710 --> 00:46:02,800
wait a second let's go back there to see

1157
00:46:07,270 --> 00:46:04,720
what this says again

1158
00:46:09,510 --> 00:46:07,280
did i just read this right while data

1159
00:46:12,550 --> 00:46:09,520
from the study is still being analyzed

1160
00:46:14,630 --> 00:46:12,560
and finalized for publication

1161
00:46:17,190 --> 00:46:14,640
so it's not even been published yet and

1162
00:46:18,950 --> 00:46:17,200
the data is still being analyzed and the

1163
00:46:22,390 --> 00:46:18,960
researchers are going to the media to

1164
00:46:24,069 --> 00:46:22,400
talk about their results what the actual

1165
00:46:25,990 --> 00:46:24,079
why are these researchers apparently

1166
00:46:27,670 --> 00:46:26,000
alerting the media to their findings

1167
00:46:28,870 --> 00:46:27,680
when they haven't even passed peer

1168
00:46:30,470 --> 00:46:28,880
review

1169
00:46:32,630 --> 00:46:30,480
well i have a few ideas on why this

1170
00:46:34,550 --> 00:46:32,640
might be which i'll get to in a minute

1171
00:46:36,710 --> 00:46:34,560
but firstly it's obviously difficult to

1172
00:46:39,589 --> 00:46:36,720
knee impossible to critique the findings

1173
00:46:41,349 --> 00:46:39,599
effectively in lieu of a paper however i

1174
00:46:43,510 --> 00:46:41,359
did find a detailed description

1175
00:46:45,670 --> 00:46:43,520
published on a trial's website which

1176
00:46:48,309 --> 00:46:45,680
outlines the methodology

1177
00:46:50,710 --> 00:46:48,319
and it describes three treatment groups

1178
00:46:53,510 --> 00:46:50,720
one standard pharmaceutical care alone

1179
00:46:56,390 --> 00:46:53,520
and this included a range of analgesics

1180
00:46:57,990 --> 00:46:56,400
including endone panadeine fort voltaron

1181
00:47:01,589 --> 00:46:58,000
and valium

1182
00:47:03,750 --> 00:47:01,599
two acupuncture alone group three a

1183
00:47:06,309 --> 00:47:03,760
combination of acupuncture with standard

1184
00:47:08,150 --> 00:47:06,319
pharmaceutical care combined well the

1185
00:47:10,230 --> 00:47:08,160
trouble with acupuncture is it's hard to

1186
00:47:12,230 --> 00:47:10,240
blind people to the treatment so

1187
00:47:14,390 --> 00:47:12,240
researchers sometimes use what's known

1188
00:47:16,630 --> 00:47:14,400
as sham acupuncture

1189
00:47:18,470 --> 00:47:16,640
this means that needles are still used

1190
00:47:21,589 --> 00:47:18,480
but they're either inserted in the wrong

1191
00:47:23,190 --> 00:47:21,599
place i.e not along the magical meridian

1192
00:47:25,990 --> 00:47:23,200
lines

1193
00:47:28,470 --> 00:47:26,000
or they are not inserted far enough to

1194
00:47:30,550 --> 00:47:28,480
have an apparent effect

1195
00:47:32,790 --> 00:47:30,560
this way the researchers can control

1196
00:47:36,150 --> 00:47:32,800
whether the acupuncture is having a real

1197
00:47:38,790 --> 00:47:36,160
effect or if it's a placebo effect since

1198
00:47:40,470 --> 00:47:38,800
it's not indicated if sham acupuncture

1199
00:47:41,990 --> 00:47:40,480
was used here there's no way to

1200
00:47:45,270 --> 00:47:42,000
determine whether the effect from the

1201
00:47:47,430 --> 00:47:45,280
acupuncture was real or placebo

1202
00:47:49,510 --> 00:47:47,440
so patients reported they felt as much

1203
00:47:52,230 --> 00:47:49,520
pain relief from acupuncture after one

1204
00:47:53,510 --> 00:47:52,240
hour as they did on painkillers

1205
00:47:55,270 --> 00:47:53,520
well sure

1206
00:47:57,109 --> 00:47:55,280
but we can't draw any conclusions from

1207
00:47:59,589 --> 00:47:57,119
this without an acupuncture control

1208
00:48:01,670 --> 00:47:59,599
group pain as everyone is well aware is

1209
00:48:04,550 --> 00:48:01,680
extremely subjective and therefore

1210
00:48:07,030 --> 00:48:04,560
highly susceptible to placebo

1211
00:48:09,270 --> 00:48:07,040
plus people often feel better after one

1212
00:48:10,950 --> 00:48:09,280
hour of treatment anyway

1213
00:48:12,950 --> 00:48:10,960
it's because they've been in hospital

1214
00:48:15,270 --> 00:48:12,960
and they've been attended to they've

1215
00:48:17,510 --> 00:48:15,280
been looked after they've had a doctor

1216
00:48:18,790 --> 00:48:17,520
take care of them of course they feel

1217
00:48:20,630 --> 00:48:18,800
better

1218
00:48:22,549 --> 00:48:20,640
without effective blinding of these

1219
00:48:25,430 --> 00:48:22,559
treatments there's simply no way to tell

1220
00:48:27,589 --> 00:48:25,440
if this effect is real and in addition

1221
00:48:30,390 --> 00:48:27,599
as listeners are probably well aware the

1222
00:48:32,309 --> 00:48:30,400
placebo effect is a curious beast

1223
00:48:34,710 --> 00:48:32,319
the more invasive a procedure the

1224
00:48:36,710 --> 00:48:34,720
stronger the placebo can be so you can

1225
00:48:38,549 --> 00:48:36,720
imagine having needles stuck in you is

1226
00:48:41,670 --> 00:48:38,559
likely to make you think your pain has

1227
00:48:43,910 --> 00:48:41,680
reduced as much or even more than if you

1228
00:48:45,829 --> 00:48:43,920
took a tiny white aspirin

1229
00:48:47,670 --> 00:48:45,839
another issue with this study being not

1230
00:48:49,270 --> 00:48:47,680
blinded is it may have selected for

1231
00:48:51,510 --> 00:48:49,280
patients who are sympathetic to the

1232
00:48:53,109 --> 00:48:51,520
efficacy of acupuncture

1233
00:48:55,030 --> 00:48:53,119
so if you turn up to the accident and

1234
00:48:57,190 --> 00:48:55,040
emergency department and someone says do

1235
00:48:59,750 --> 00:48:57,200
you want to be in an acupuncture trial

1236
00:49:02,390 --> 00:48:59,760
if you're me you'll say no thank you

1237
00:49:03,670 --> 00:49:02,400
very much please get me some real drugs

1238
00:49:05,589 --> 00:49:03,680
but if you're somebody who is

1239
00:49:07,510 --> 00:49:05,599
sympathetic to acupuncture or believes

1240
00:49:10,710 --> 00:49:07,520
in acupuncture then you're more likely

1241
00:49:12,710 --> 00:49:10,720
to say yes this will then also influence

1242
00:49:15,430 --> 00:49:12,720
the pain perception of these people if

1243
00:49:17,109 --> 00:49:15,440
you believe it then it probably works

1244
00:49:19,510 --> 00:49:17,119
we also must consider the role of

1245
00:49:21,829 --> 00:49:19,520
wanting to please the nice doctor

1246
00:49:23,349 --> 00:49:21,839
patients may report a reduction in pain

1247
00:49:26,549 --> 00:49:23,359
later found to be the equivalent of

1248
00:49:28,470 --> 00:49:26,559
analgesics as reported however this is

1249
00:49:30,150 --> 00:49:28,480
questionable because they have been

1250
00:49:33,109 --> 00:49:30,160
fussed over and may be taken to a

1251
00:49:35,190 --> 00:49:33,119
private room to lie down and relax

1252
00:49:37,750 --> 00:49:35,200
all of these things can introduce

1253
00:49:39,910 --> 00:49:37,760
confounding variables into studies which

1254
00:49:41,990 --> 00:49:39,920
is why controls are critical

1255
00:49:44,309 --> 00:49:42,000
the appropriate controls were simply not

1256
00:49:46,150 --> 00:49:44,319
used here making these findings pretty

1257
00:49:48,309 --> 00:49:46,160
much worthless

1258
00:49:50,150 --> 00:49:48,319
so this is part of the reason why i

1259
00:49:52,150 --> 00:49:50,160
think this study has not been published

1260
00:49:53,910 --> 00:49:52,160
yet all of which leads me back to why

1261
00:49:56,470 --> 00:49:53,920
it's been announced in the press and not

1262
00:49:58,710 --> 00:49:56,480
in the pages of peer review

1263
00:50:01,829 --> 00:49:58,720
i suspect this study might not pass peer

1264
00:50:04,069 --> 00:50:01,839
review without sham controls also odd is

1265
00:50:07,190 --> 00:50:04,079
that the research data australia website

1266
00:50:09,990 --> 00:50:07,200
says the trial began in 2008 and was due

1267
00:50:11,510 --> 00:50:10,000
for completion in 2011.

1268
00:50:13,829 --> 00:50:11,520
so why have the results not been

1269
00:50:15,349 --> 00:50:13,839
published yet is it because they likely

1270
00:50:17,190 --> 00:50:15,359
won't be

1271
00:50:19,270 --> 00:50:17,200
this would be a very big worry for the

1272
00:50:21,109 --> 00:50:19,280
researchers especially given that the

1273
00:50:24,630 --> 00:50:21,119
national health and medical research

1274
00:50:28,710 --> 00:50:24,640
council gave these guys 416

1275
00:50:30,549 --> 00:50:28,720
301 dollars to conduct this trial

1276
00:50:32,549 --> 00:50:30,559
even more of a worry though is the

1277
00:50:34,390 --> 00:50:32,559
researchers apparent disregard for the

1278
00:50:36,309 --> 00:50:34,400
australian code for the responsible

1279
00:50:39,910 --> 00:50:36,319
conduct of research

1280
00:50:42,230 --> 00:50:39,920
section 4.2.1 says discussing research

1281
00:50:43,990 --> 00:50:42,240
findings in the public arena should not

1282
00:50:46,549 --> 00:50:44,000
occur until the findings have been

1283
00:50:48,390 --> 00:50:46,559
tested through peer review in discussing

1284
00:50:50,710 --> 00:50:48,400
the outcomes of a research project

1285
00:50:53,270 --> 00:50:50,720
special care should be taken to explain

1286
00:50:55,270 --> 00:50:53,280
the status of the project for example

1287
00:50:57,109 --> 00:50:55,280
whether it is still in progress or has

1288
00:50:59,670 --> 00:50:57,119
been finalized

1289
00:51:01,430 --> 00:50:59,680
so in this particular article it was

1290
00:51:02,790 --> 00:51:01,440
made clear that these findings have not

1291
00:51:03,910 --> 00:51:02,800
been published and are still being

1292
00:51:06,230 --> 00:51:03,920
analyzed

1293
00:51:08,150 --> 00:51:06,240
however several days later one of the

1294
00:51:10,710 --> 00:51:08,160
lead researchers from this study went on

1295
00:51:13,190 --> 00:51:10,720
radio in new south wales and did not

1296
00:51:14,630 --> 00:51:13,200
make it clear that this study has not

1297
00:51:17,109 --> 00:51:14,640
been published

1298
00:51:18,630 --> 00:51:17,119
i'm all for the systematic investigation

1299
00:51:20,870 --> 00:51:18,640
of complementary and alternative

1300
00:51:22,470 --> 00:51:20,880
medicine including traditional chinese

1301
00:51:24,630 --> 00:51:22,480
medicine but in order to get any

1302
00:51:27,270 --> 00:51:24,640
meaningful results we must do this with

1303
00:51:29,589 --> 00:51:27,280
correctly designed clinical trials

1304
00:51:31,510 --> 00:51:29,599
in this case the horse has bolted people

1305
00:51:33,030 --> 00:51:31,520
will now think that acupuncture works

1306
00:51:35,510 --> 00:51:33,040
just as well for pain relief as

1307
00:51:38,150 --> 00:51:35,520
analgesics and this constitutes bad

1308
00:51:40,470 --> 00:51:38,160
practice and bad science in my opinion

1309
00:51:42,390 --> 00:51:40,480
you can find three blog posts related to

1310
00:51:45,750 --> 00:51:42,400
this piece on the official blog of the

1311
00:51:47,750 --> 00:51:45,760
skeptic zone at skepticsbook.com

1312
00:51:58,950 --> 00:51:47,760
and until next time this has been dr

1313
00:52:04,069 --> 00:52:01,589
but questions is an award-winning weekly

1314
00:52:06,150 --> 00:52:04,079
science show in french hosted by a bunch

1315
00:52:08,630 --> 00:52:06,160
of crazy enthusiasts

1316
00:52:10,950 --> 00:52:08,640
we are convinced that the greatest ideas

1317
00:52:13,030 --> 00:52:10,960
in science are quite easy to grasp as

1318
00:52:15,589 --> 00:52:13,040
long as they are presented with passion

1319
00:52:18,069 --> 00:52:15,599
using a vocabulary common to all curious

1320
00:52:19,270 --> 00:52:18,079
minds whatever their academic background

1321
00:52:21,270 --> 00:52:19,280
if any

1322
00:52:22,710 --> 00:52:21,280
you don't understand french yet well

1323
00:52:24,309 --> 00:52:22,720
it's never too late

1324
00:52:26,150 --> 00:52:24,319
all our stories have a written

1325
00:52:28,309 --> 00:52:26,160
transcript on the website and people

1326
00:52:30,950 --> 00:52:28,319
from all around the world are using our

1327
00:52:33,589 --> 00:52:30,960
content to learn malia's language

1328
00:52:36,190 --> 00:52:33,599
our topics range from zero to infinity

1329
00:52:38,069 --> 00:52:36,200
from evolution to artificial life from

1330
00:52:39,270 --> 00:52:38,079
electromagnetism to the science of

1331
00:52:41,829 --> 00:52:39,280
introverts

1332
00:52:45,430 --> 00:52:41,839
we just love mathematics science

1333
00:52:47,109 --> 00:52:45,440
critical thinking so do you want to join

1334
00:52:48,910 --> 00:52:47,119
you can subscribe to the podcast for

1335
00:52:51,670 --> 00:52:48,920
free from our website

1336
00:52:54,390 --> 00:52:51,680
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1337
00:52:57,109 --> 00:52:54,400
also find us on itunes and soundcloud

1338
00:53:16,630 --> 00:52:57,119
see you soon hopefully at

1339
00:53:20,549 --> 00:53:18,710
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1340
00:53:23,109 --> 00:53:20,559
zone yes coming up in the next

1341
00:53:25,670 --> 00:53:23,119
weeks i imagine as soon as i can get my

1342
00:53:28,549 --> 00:53:25,680
hands on them reports from iran so give

1343
00:53:31,910 --> 00:53:28,559
interviewing people at the wonderful qed

1344
00:53:34,150 --> 00:53:31,920
convention in manchester in the uk oh i

1345
00:53:36,790 --> 00:53:34,160
hope i hope he had time to talk to dr

1346
00:53:38,710 --> 00:53:36,800
richard wiseman what a fine fellow he is

1347
00:53:40,870 --> 00:53:38,720
what an interesting man but i'm sure

1348
00:53:43,670 --> 00:53:40,880
lots of good interviews are coming our

1349
00:53:45,430 --> 00:53:43,680
way i happen to notice also that uh

1350
00:53:47,670 --> 00:53:45,440
right now in the czech republic in this

1351
00:53:50,549 --> 00:53:47,680
little city of olimotes is the

1352
00:53:52,549 --> 00:53:50,559
afo the uh olimoths

1353
00:53:55,109 --> 00:53:52,559
science film festival which i attended

1354
00:53:57,109 --> 00:53:55,119
last year and if anybody's listening

1355
00:53:59,270 --> 00:53:57,119
who's attending that festival all the

1356
00:54:01,190 --> 00:53:59,280
best it's a it's a wonderful festival to

1357
00:54:02,790 --> 00:54:01,200
to be at and i was so pleased to be

1358
00:54:05,990 --> 00:54:02,800
there last year

1359
00:54:08,069 --> 00:54:06,000
in fact our friend dr bashira saab the

1360
00:54:11,030 --> 00:54:08,079
man who's trying to go to mars he's

1361
00:54:13,750 --> 00:54:11,040
there at the film festival this year hi

1362
00:54:15,349 --> 00:54:13,760
besh hope you're having a great time

1363
00:54:17,829 --> 00:54:15,359
but for now for this week this is

1364
00:54:22,870 --> 00:54:17,839
richard saunders signing off from sydney

1365
00:54:26,150 --> 00:54:24,549
you've been listening to the skeptic

1366
00:54:30,950 --> 00:54:26,160
zone